just to put this in perspective, it would take 15 million new jobs to be created over the next five years to return to full employment. so something that would look a little more normal. >> 15 million over five years? >> 15 million over the next five years. >> 15 million? >> yes, a lot. so we're not going to see that because a lot of the jobs we've lost are gone forever. >> do you see some sort of new norm in the workforce out there today? >> as you know, alex, the new norm is sort of part-time, contract, freelance work. the companies have the money. they're sitting on the cash, but it's expensive to bring new people in, to add them to their payrolls, complicated to bring them in. also the way it's structured makes it very difficult to bring new employees in. small businesses at this stage should be hiring, they're the ones that take us out, bring us the first ones to actually hire in a recovery. and instead, some of these small businesses are being strangled literally out of existence. >> yeah. all right. vera gibbons, we're going to have to get some silver lining next time you're up here.